A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

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A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

tripletopper
Character Actor
2 issues. I know why 3D failed as a format on Pay TV. It's the exact same reason color TV failed in the 50s, color TV succeeded in the 60s and why Stereo TV succeeded in the 80s. 50s color were RGB signals, which were black-and-white incompatible. 60s color was YUV signals, which are black and white compatible (the y is the luma, a black and white signal, and the rest is color information) 80s had Stereo TV, but it was mono-compatible. In all those cases, they never excluded "the behind the times people" from enjoying their programming.

However 3D is not like that. Currently, by necessity, if you present something in 3D, you ruin it for the 2D audience. And if you turn off 90-95 percent of the people before your first frame is broadcast that is not a recipe for success. I could have sworn that the first season of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was designed to originally be in 3D, just look at the beginning. But Nickelodeon didn't want 2D viewers turned off. So the only way to make 3D successful is to make it as unobtrusive to the 2D population as possible.

Here's a Solution: 1) broadcast your 3D signals in side-by-side half, which is compatible with 2D satellite TV technology. The only thing you're going to get in 2D is double vision. 2) make a new hopper, or update the old ones where if a 3D signal is detected, and either you don't want 3D or don't have a 3D TV, just take either the left or right frame (left or right half of screen),stretch it in width by 2x, and center it. 3) This may be stretching, but I've seen this technology work on a live 3D stream in Mac OS 10.6 (they are currently on 10.12) and convert it to red and cyan 3D. So now you don't need a 3D TV to watch it in 3D. If you haven't seen red and cyan in Spy Kids 3D, let's just say the technology is good enough where it's just red and cyan highlights at key depth points and the color comes through better than previous red and cyan technologies. A 3D TV would be better, but if you like 3D and can't find a 3D TV in your size, this would be a good alternative.

Other things you can do wth a technology like this. I notice most HD signals on Dish have an HD signal and a separate standard definition signal. I tried calling Dish figuring out whether they broadcast with 2 separate patches of bandwidth, or whether the SD signal is derived from the HD signal and is a box processed signal, and not a raw satellite feed. Most Dish helpers say it's a separate signal. With this technology, you don't need a separate 4k 3d, 4k 2d, 1080p 3d, 1080p 2d and 480i 2d and 480i r/c signal. Broadcast one signal at the highest quality, and let the box down-convert.

At worst it's going to take a quarter second delay to convert. But how many spoilers on live TV can be ruined in a quarter second, even in the era of the tweet? Literally the only thing that might be ruined is play-at-home game shows, but even in the early 00s, when Game Show Network had play at home shows, they made the games so cable doesn't have an advantage over satellite, by not timing it to the hundredth of a second and not rewarding based on quickness, unlike some late 90s play at home shows where you had to call a 900 number to play and you got 1 point for each hundredth of a second remaining.

Also issues or TV picture ratio can be fixed. I hate it when networks "zoom in" a 4x3 signal to make it 16x9, but you lose a portion of the picture. Same going the other way. I don't usually watch movies on Dish Network because most movies turn a 2.35x1 movie into a 16x9 movie. I even have an old DVD widescreen edition of a movie where I noticed, instead of showing the whole video, they took the 4x3 which is a chopped version anyway and zoomed in further to make it 1.85x1, which reduced the picture data even further. So the picture should be stored as the picture with the most pictorial data, and if you set it to fill a screen let the box zoom to fill in the screen, so those who want to fill their screen can, but those who want to see the whole picture can see the whole picture too. You can give both versions in one signal by using a box that can zoom in the picture for those who want a filled screen, without broadcasting 2 separate signals.

You just need to use a few bits per second to transmit the ratio, the maximum signal resolution, and whether or not it's in 3D. Based on what type of signal it receives, and what your box is set at, adjusts to you, so people still stuck on 480i TVs can still get every channel in 480i. Also there is only one master signal, which down-converts at the local level to whatever is needed, which frees more bandwidth for higher quality channels and more channels.

Finally, make a deal with OTA broadcasters where this technology can be used on broadcast signals, so 3D TV can be turned into 2D or Red and Cyan. Get a government grant so people can get a 3D processor for free (if you just want 2D) or cheap (if you want red and cyan) to encourage more 3D. The easiest way to do it is to make 3D 2D-compatible. Kind of like the HD Tuners that work on SD TVs too.
13 Replies

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

hddn
Visual Engineer
tripletopper wrote:
I tried calling Dish figuring out whether they broadcast with 2 separate patches of bandwidth, or whether the SD signal is derived from the HD signal and is a box processed signal, and not a raw satellite feed. Most Dish helpers say it's a separate signal.


Yes, there are thousands... millions? of old receivers our there that predate HD and many people don't want to be bothered to be forced to deal with a replacement.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

tripletopper
Character Actor
True, but the new progarams can have Analgo Rf, Composite, S-Video, or analog Component to accomodate those TVs. I'm talking about the programing. The programming will be the best quality, and the boxes will reduce the signal to 480i. If you can convince the govenment that this is a good 2D compatible to make TV 3D without ruining old sets, lkind of like the HD boxes, it should work.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

hddn
Visual Engineer
But I'm talking about old receivers that probably can't run the new programming and old dishes that aren't pointed at the right satellites. I'm just pointing out that that's why they currently transmit in both the old way and the new. The advantage of just down-converting new stuff for old TVs is pretty obvious, so if they could have updated all those old boxes with an automatic SW update, I'm sure they would have.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

tripletopper
Character Actor
But those HD antenna boxes that the government subsidized took 720p and 1080i programming and sub-channels, and allowed them to watch all the digital channels in 480i on older TVs, even with no composite video connectors, even the twin screw type would work with a Dish box with a Coaxial-to-twin-screw adapter. If those boxes were good, then it should be easy enough to reprogram the boxes via satellite to make sat boxes that can down-convert. You don't have to waste satellite space broadcasting 2 separate versions, when one version would do, and would open up new channel space, 3D space, and 4k space, without having to launch a new satellite in the air. Those HD->SD OTA converters has a separate HD and SD set, and you could switch modes and have 2 different batches of bandwidth, and pick up the one channel that didn't broadcast in HD, like WOAH Akron, until they were required to upgrade to HD broadcasting, because most had SD passthrough. And those SD adapters works for Pre-NES video Games that only have RF video output, which is the only remaining use for analog RF tuners for those wh upgraded media, but insist o the original video game classic medium.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

hddn
Visual Engineer
tripletopper wrote:
If those boxes were good, then it should be easy enough to reprogram the boxes via satellite to make sat boxes that can down-convert.


That would certainly be the obvious solution. So why didn't they? You think that just never occurred to them?

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

tripletopper
Character Actor
I know someone who has a modern Dish Network box, but is hooked up to a component 480i CRT TV. Laser discs look great on it. The box controls programing and converts it.

Even I have my 1080p 3D tv converted to 480i because the second tuner has an analog output for output number 2. Even though the programs are recorded on the DVR as a Hi-def video. I am able to get not only every SD channel, but every HD channel, and it's in letterboxed 4X3 within a 16x9 screen. And it's down-converted to 480i. And there's literally no difference between the SD and HD feeds, except sometimes the SD zooms in but if you read part 3, I came up with a way to deal with it, send the ratio and an integer representing where along the 16x9 frame the 4x3 frame begins. So you can have dynamic pan and scan and letterbox on the same broadcast.

And unfortunately I can only get 480i watching downstairs, even though I have a 1080p 3D Monitor. But upstairs we have an HDTV. And we're not upgrading until either my dad buys a 4KTV, or Dish has significantly more 3D programming than 0 minutes, then I'll pay to get 3D downstairs.

Maybe to kick off this technology, since Dish hired Weird Al Yankovic before, he could do a 3D music video in side-by-side half 3D of a parody of Wiz Kahlifa's "Black and Yellow", call it "Red and Cyan", and make it about the modern 3D TV, video game, and movie scene. And you can see it in side-by-side half, red and cyan, and plain old 2D. If you had a black-and white TV, you can even watch it in Black-and-White, even in side-by-side half 3D. You just can't watch Red and Cyan in Black and White.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

d4g4m
Visual Engineer
Add this to the mix. The FCC will soon approve 4k OTA. Actual real uncompressed 4096x2160 signal BUT to receive the signal, the 4k TV must have the new ATSC 3.0 tuner.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

tripletopper
Character Actor
What are the FCC regulations regarding OTA 3DTV? A device like I suggested would allow more freedom in 3D without making obsolete 2D TVs.

Re: A 2D-compatible 3D and saving bandwidth for more 4k, 3d

Chadt41411
Casting Director
There is absolutely no reason to invest into 3D in any way shape or form right now, for any telecom company. There is no extra revenue to be had, but significant cost. From a former 3D tv owner, it just needs to finish dying, 3D has been a cancer for decades, and really has not shown too much for it.